Kremlin Insider: “Don’t Trust Putin at All”

Audio By Carbonatix

Published: March 9, 2022 | Date of Source Audio: March 8, 2022

Transcribed and modified for publication from the original audio program

Dr. Sebastian Gorka talks with Dr. Andrei Illarionov about Putin's true ambitions

Dr. Sebastian Gorka: (Clip of Vladimir Putin) That is a clip from a speech from Vladimir Putin 16 years ago, a speech in which he said something more than once: The loss of the Soviet Union is the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the last century. Is that his motivation for what has been unfolding in Ukraine over the last two weeks? Let's discuss with a man who advised President Putin, who I recently saw on my colleague, Sean Spicer’s, show on Newsmax. He is a former economic advisor to Russia's acting prime minister, Yegor Gaidar, chief economic advisor to Russian prime minister, Victor Chernomyrdin, and chief economic advisor to Vladimir Putin. Dr. Andrei Illarionov, welcome to America First.

Dr. Andrei Illarionov: Thank you very much, Sebastian, for inviting me.

Gorka: You are very, very welcome. You have an illustrious resumé. I have three pages worth of your qualifications in front of me. We do not have many people with your prior access inside the Kremlin speaking out on American media regarding the events occurring in Ukraine. So, let's start at the beginning. Will you walk us through – our millions of listers and viewers across the country – your background before you came to the United States, your qualifications. You've studied in the U.K. and Austria at Stafford University. So, introduce yourself to our listeners.

Illarionov: I'm an economist by training and I spent most of my time as an economist and studying economic policy and advising on economic policy. You mentioned some of the people whom I advised. For almost six years, I was economic advisor to current Russian president. …

… The intentions of the Russian leadership, of Mr. Putin right now, is very opposite to … when Putin was talking a little bit about democracy, freedom or whatever. It's definitely wrong. Putin does not pursue these goals anymore. His intentions are imperialistic. His intentions are conquering the neighboring country, establishing new world order. And definitely, as he made it very clear over the last three months, his main goal is to establish a sphere of influence in Europe, according to the so-called 1997 line … the division line in Europe, which means all Eastern and central Europe should come under his sphere of influence.

Gorka: Yeah. What the Kremlin calls the Near Abroad.

“His appetite will be growing every day and every week if he is not stopped.”

Illarionov: Even more, even more. Because 1997, a line, which means not only Near Abroad, it means not only Ukraine, Georgia, not only Baltic, but also Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania. And in the document that Putin sent to the United States and NATO in December, January and February, he was very clear. He mentioned all these countries that should be demilitarized, or de-NATO-ized. It means revoking their NATO membership and removal of all military equipment or whatever forces from NATO in those countries. So, it's an attempt to re-establish the so-called Stalin line of 1945, right after the Second World War. So, Mr. Putin's ambition now is not only Ukraine. It is at least half of Europe. Because his appetite is growing every day and every week. So, we don't know yet what his final goal – actually, we know this goal. It will be growing. His appetite will be growing every day and every week if he is not stopped. …

Gorka: … You have advised this individual. Can you give us a sense of who Vladimir Putin is and explain why people should not be surprised at the events of the last two weeks?

Illarionov: He's a very calculated person. He's a very persistent person. If he takes some particular goal, he's using all possible and impossible resources and all instruments and technologies and manipulations, whatever, just to get this goal achieved. So that is why I would not buy any of this stuff about, “he became crazy, he does not understand what's going on.” No. All his actions are – we can see they are absolutely devilish, but they are very persistent in achieving his goals. …

“Mr. Putin's ambition now is not only Ukraine. It is at least half of Europe.”

Gorka: … Dr. Illarionov, can you help our listeners get inside the mindset of the average Russian in terms of the information that they are allowed to consume? This narrative coming out of the Kremlin that this is a peacekeeping operation, it is a humanitarian operation in Ukraine, it’s there to save ethnic Russians from genocidal, ethnic cleansing by the government in Kiev that is a fascist, Nazi government. Can you explain how information is controlled and how this narrative is hard to undermine within Russia?

Illarionov: It'll be very hard to explain to the Western audience because those people completely isolating from information from abroad, and all last remnants of relatively free or semi-free media have been closed over the last 10 days. There is no foreign source of information within Russia. All those media outlets that could be considered either opposition or semi-opposition have been closed down. There is no possibility to even social networks like YouTube, like Twitter, like Facebook, like livejournal.com. Essentially, they are either closed completely or substantially closed down by the Russian authority. So that is why I would say 80% to 85% of the Russian population are completely brainwashed. They do not have access to any other information and they have a very, to put it mildly, very strange view about the rest of the world and about the state of their own country. Unfortunately, we cannot rely on support from inside Russia.

We have maybe 15% of the Russian population who have a reasonably good understanding of what’s going on. But they are the minority. And they are under attack from the Russian security services, from the Kremlin. Some of them are already behind bars. Some of them might be behind bars. So, unfortunately, this is a situation that we could see in history in totalitarian regimes like Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR or North Korea right now. This is very similar now, very close to the situation of totalitarian regimes.

Gorka: … How powerful is this desire to have a strong man in Moscow? And how strong is this belief that Russia is surrounded … and the West is about to attack? Is this truly the universal appreciation amongst most citizens in Russia?

Illarionov: No, I would not say so. Certainly, we don't have the exact sociological data because in totalitarian, semi-totalitarian regimes, we could not get any reasonable sociological data. But I would say maybe 30%, 35% or 40% would subscribe to this particular view. But the majority of people in Russia right now are incredibly fearful. They are fearful of everything, especially their people of their own regime because that regime can destroy everything, can destroy their livelihood. … Just a few days ago, we saw the people walking through the Nevsky Prospekt in St. Petersburg, police coming to those people and asking, “What is your view about the situation in Ukraine?” The person responds, “Okay, I'm against the war.” Okay. You are arrested. And they take that person and bring him behind bars. So, once again, people outside of Russia do not have clear understanding, do not have full understanding what a kind of nightmare regime is in Russia. And that regime can do virtually everything, both within the country and now they are doing the outrageous crime in Ukraine. And at the same time, again, Georgia, against Moldova, in Syria, in many other places. …

Gorka: Last question. What is it the West doesn't understand about Putin that they need to know, Professor?

“As long as Mr. Putin is the head of Russia, the whole world is under threat of attack.”

Illarionov: Don't trust Putin at all. Don't make deals with Putin at all. And you need to understand there cannot be peace, there cannot be any negotiations, cannot be any agreement with Mr. Putin. The only guarantee for peace in Europe and the world? That would be de-Putinization of Russia. Not only armistice, but it should be de-Putinization of Russia. Because as long as Mr. Putin is the head of Russia, the whole world is under threat of attack, including nuclear attack against the world.

Gorka: When you have a killer, a thug, in charge of a nuclear-tipped nation, the world is in danger. That was fabulous. Thank you, professor. Thank you. We have been talking to former presidential and prime ministerial advisor to the Russian government, Dr. Andrei Illarionov. You can follow him at aIllarionov.livejournal.com at the Center for Security Policy.